 | | 3/20/2009 3:55 PM |
|---|
potnoodle
Member since: 5/9/2008 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | | If I understand it correctly, the reason that Shout had to include some edited episodes as well as episodes with video problems is because the original masters tapes supplied by Fox, that have been sitting in a film library for almost 35 years, themselves are not in good shape. The edited, syndicated episodes appear to be in better shape. Based on Shout's track record, I have to believe that if better quality original material was out there to be included, they would have used it. My guess is that the choice was whether to offer a Season 1 set with these deficiencies or not to release Rhoda at all. And to Shout's credit, they are not advertising this as Rhoda - The Complete 1st Season, but just Season 1, unlike certain unnamed companies (like Warner) have done in a blatant attempt to deceive the customer. |
| | | 3/20/2009 5:00 PM |
|---|
zaxxar
Member since: 12/9/2008 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | Shout released "Punky Brewster" on DVD, and all of those were uncut, even though they simply said seasons 1, 2, 3, and 4 respectively.
The same thing can also be said about "Mr. Belvedere" and "Room 222". |
| | | 3/20/2009 5:38 PM |
|---|
JMFabianoRPL
Member since: 2/1/2008 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | And at least they aren't obnoxious about it not being "complete" like other companies with their annoying disclaimers about music and edits, both of which they use to the hilt!
I'll still want this probably, I mean, it's RHODA and how else will I get it? Hopefully the later seasons are in better shape (and I wonder why they let Rhoda go to pot while other members of the MTM library look so much better?) and they put on the Carlton the Doorman cartoon as a bonus! |
| | | 3/20/2009 6:37 PM |
|---|
TV_Fan
Member since: 7/5/2007 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | I truly believe Shout! did the best they could. Apprently some episodes even came from private collectors. At the very least I guess Rhoda fans can be thankful at least some of the episodes are uncut. For those who refuse to buy the set that is their personal choice. I have a feeling though that a lot more will end up buying the set because Rhoda hasn't been seen on TV in years. Also the only only other official home video release, the VHS put out by Fox years ago, only contained edited episodes.
Please bring "Starman" the 1986-87 tv series to DVD. |
| | | 3/21/2009 9:59 AM |
|---|
zaxxar
Member since: 12/9/2008 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | To add even more insult to the injury, the unedited version of the pilot episode titled "Joe", can be viewed (in great quality, too) at the Paley Media Center in Los Angeles.
There's even a memorable missing scene that is missing on the DVD. A user by the name of Snowpeck provided the info about it on SitcomsOnline:
Mary Tyler Moore was trying to see Rhoda off at the airport, but couldn't get through, because she kept setting off the metal detector, even after her purse was searched.
I am shocked that Shout! Factory did not know about this.
|
| | | 3/21/2009 5:08 PM |
|---|
bobf320
Member since: 3/21/2009 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | I actually have that scene on video tape from way back when. I just put it on DVD before I knew that Shout was releasing the DVD set. That scene is almost three minutes long, and is quite funny. It is too bad it is not going to be on the set. While I am disappointed that some episodes are edited, I am thankful to Shout Factory for releasing the series. |
| | | 3/21/2009 5:19 PM |
|---|
JMFabianoRPL
Member since: 2/1/2008 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | My question is, is the Paley (it'll always be MT&R to me ;-)) copy from a network-or-network-affiliate master? As in, was it an off-air recording? Lots of programs in the Paley library fit this description, having original network promos and commercials.
And when (and by whom?) was it donated? |
| | | 4/16/2009 9:40 PM |
|---|
tvlovr
Member since: 4/16/2009 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | Thanks Shout for releasing Rhoda, I hope all 5 seasons are released, as I plan to purchase all of them!!
|
| | | 4/17/2009 8:07 AM |
|---|
Actingman
Member since: 9/5/2007 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | With no slam at all against Shout and their business model (since I am a happy customer on a number of titles) here is what I think the situation is:
Shout takes what the studios give them. I assume Shout could go to a studio and say "here's hundreds of thousand of dollars...get the original camera negatives out of the salt vaults and do a proper high quality remastering job of them."
But Shout does not have that kind of budget for it's releases. Remember, they specialize in releasing properties that the major studios feel don't have enough of a market for them to bother with (as well as titles of distinction, etc). Shout has to take what the studios give them. If the studios had recently remastered all of their stuff, then that is what Shout would get. If the studio looks and sees a set of mastered to tape copies in inventory...that is what they send to Shout. If these are masters from decades ago...then so be it. The studio is not going to spend any money on a sub-license...which can't amount to much in licensing fees. So Shout has to take what they are given.
I will give you an example of this with another Shout release: The second season of Ironside had a two hour episode, which was split up into a two-parter for syndication. Universal looked at their inventory and gave Shout a set of copies that they had which were ready to send out, which were early 90's (I think) mastered to tape syndication copies...which means the two part version of that episode, rather than the more complete two hour version...which has seen recent airing (as in well before Shout's release) on the Hallmark channel. If Universal had released Ironside under its own label, they would have gone back into the vaults and gotten a complete copy of the two hour version. I say this because with Universal's beautiful relase of the original Battlestar Galactica, they went back and got the original complete three hour version of the premiere. If they had sub-licensed the show to Shout, I suspect they would have just sent Shout the three-part syndication version. There was also a two hour episode that aired late in the series run...same thing. The Universal release had the original version...any sub-license whould probably have just gotten the two part syndication copy. And if Shout had gone to Universal in this hypothetical and said "we would like the original versions for the premiere and Greeting From Earth", I believe Universal would have said "fine...here is what it will cost you for us to go in and dig it out and master even a half-assed copy for you." And that last sentence leads me to my second example: Universal themselves released Seasons One and Two of Quincy. The first season episodes were in a 90 minute or two hour format. While I don't remember if they edited them down to one hour versions for syndication, you can see on the DVD release that they went in and got copies of the original length episodes. They appear to me to be "mastered" to DVD, but not "restored." There is a huge difference, between the two...which comes down to a matter of money. With Galactica, they went to original elements for the mastering and spent the money to do it right. With Quincy they spent just enough money to get copies of the original versions on dvd...or at least that is how it looks to my semi-trained eye.
Here is an example of Fox doing to themselves what Shout has to put up with as a provider of sub-license titles: The first Irwin Allen series Fox released was Lost In Space. Did Fox go in and get the original source elements and do a masterful job of remastering a highly visual series? NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They went and took mastered to tape copies that I think were done some time in the late 80's and sent those out. Copies so bad that night time scenes in the B/W episodes shot on a sound stage have completly black areas to them...areas that could be seen clearly on the 16mm syndication copies we had watched for years. And at least one episode from the first season, and one from the second had footage missing. Fans had VHS copies made from 16mm tv reruns that were more complete. The fans mastered the missing scenes to DVD and posted them. But Fox couldn't be bothered. Now I think in regard to the Irwin Allen properties Fox learned its lesson. All of the remaining series have been remastered from original elements...and are breath-taking in their visual and sound quality. Oh...a lesson learned from this: Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea has been seen for years on Sci-Fi Channel struck from very bad 16mm copies. I had people swear to me that the originals were destroyed in a fire years ago. Not true. The first three seasons, and the recently released first part of the fourth season have been remasted from original elements.
Now that is not to say that stuff can't go missing or rot away in even careful storage. Several original episodes of Soap could not be located, so they had to use syndication copies for the DVD releases. I would love for someone to tell me how you can have 85 master copies of something, all kept together, and suddenly not have 4 or 5 of them when you need them. (Actually, it is for examples like that the late, great Steve Allen wrote "Dumbth.") And on another forum, a woman who works in the archives of Paramount, the current holder of the Quinn Martin titles, reported that the materials were just being ignored, and going to rot.
On a different post today I added my voice to wanting a full series release of Paper Chase...Shout has just released the first season. A review of the release mentioned that picture quality was average and the sound in some places was below average. My reaction was "well of course...Fox probably sent them copies that had been made either for the PBS showings in 81-82 (although PBS only aired half the series) or the copies Fox supplied to Showtime when they reran the entire first season in the 80's when they started running new episodes.
If Shout were to ever pickup the remaining seasons of St Elsewhere and/or Hill Street Blues, I suspect they would get remastered copies, because Fox has already remastered those series for recent showings on various cable channels. They already exist and are ready to go out...so Shout would get them. Again, the message through all of this is the studios are only going to send out what is cheapest in a sub-licensing arrangement.
Again, I in no way fault Shout for any of this. They are doing what they can to get these titles out. In the case of Ironside they had to discontinue it for business reasons, so I am now getting the Australian releases. No anger here...I understand. Shout lines one of my shelves with all of the 90 minute SCTV episodes (and what they could clear of the 30 minute episodes in the Best of title)...required for any library alongside Monty Python and Sid Caesar...thank you Shout.
And if we can get all of Paper Chase...even if not from original elements...my wallet is ready.
So if anybody is still with me on this, and to get back to Rhoda: while it is possible for it to have happened, I tend to doubt that master copies of Mary Tyler Moore (which are up to 4 years older) survived with no problem while the Rhoda masters did not. It is just a case of Fox not lifting one cost finger more than it has to in providing the materials to a sub-license release. I would bet everything I don't have that if Fox were releasing this title, the episodes would have been complete, and in much better shape. And Shout is doing the best they can to bring us what they can, based on the economic realities of their business. Now if we all want to pitch in a few hundred or thousand bucks each and give it to Shout with full, legally signed releases, so they can throw the money at Fox and say "Here!...now give us some damn decent copies of Rhoda you <blanks>..."
I would love for someone to point to a site that gives an average cost for a title to come to market...from getting original copies (and then break it down as to whether the copies have already been digitized or not) to clearance research, to clearance costs (or to editing to remove costly or impossible clearance issues), to digitizing to DVD format, to manufacturing, to distribution. |
| | | 4/17/2009 10:54 AM |
|---|
B Ward
Member since: 1/12/2007 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | Thanks, ActingMan. My faith that someone out there fully understands the process and, thus, the limitations has been restored. I'm positive that the original film elements exist SOMEWHERE. The question is where? And how do we get to it? In fairness to Fox, no one working there today dealt with these elements when they were initially stored, which was prior to easy digital cataloging. So even the people I work with aren't money-grubbing suits. They legitimately don't know where those elements are, either. So it would take a great deal of sleuthing to find those elements and restore them. Not that we're not willing, but it would also take a great deal time and resources, meaning folks would certainly have to be patient between volumes. And, as you've seen on other threads, some fans aren't always as understanding or forgiving, when it comes to waiting between sets.
We certainly aim to please, but we also know that, while we try, we certainly can't please everyone. Despite its flaws with the tape damage and syndicated episodes, I still enjoy Rhoda very much. In fact, I was just watching a couple of the episodes for pleasure yesterday.
Brian
"Know Thyself"
--Thales |
| | | 4/18/2009 2:58 PM |
|---|
Eastmancolor
Member since: 4/18/2009 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | The original 35mm negatives of the MTM library are now controlled by 20th Century Fox. Viacom utilized these negatives when they prepared their syndicated versions to TV years ago (first in the making of their 16mm syndication prints in the 1970's and then their later videotape elements that were supplied to local TV stations after that). Though the RHODA original negatives should still exist, the cost for going back to these negatives to make new telecine transfers can average around $1500-$2000 per episode (depending on what facility is used) so to do an entire season can be a significant chunk of change to do correctly. Whereas, if all you do is copy an old pre-existing video master, it's a lot less money.
CBS/Paramount and Sony usually go back to the original film elements when they make their DVD releases and that's why shows like HAWAII 5-0, BEWITCHED, PERRY MASON and SEINFELD look so good. When studios and DVD producers go on the cheap, they try to get by with pre-existing video masters that were made decades ago for TV broadcast or VHS video distribution. That's what happened with RHODA as well as with the recently released ROOM 222.
The really sad part is, no one will spend the money to put out a top quality set of RHODA on DVD now that this season 1 set just got released. There isn't room in the marketplace for two competing sets, no matter how bad this current one is. When C.S.I. Season 1 was originally released, it was slammed for being in the 4x3 aspect ratio, even though it was shot for 16x9. Later seasons were released correctly in 16x9, but not season 1. It wasn't until the recent release in blu-ray did CBS want to spend the money for the upgraded DVD's, so now season 1 of C.S.I. will be presented correctly.
So, you usually will only get one chance to do it right with most shows on DVD. The only way that RHODA will ever be fixed is if Fox suddenly gets the desire to spend the money on new transfers and for a distributor, like Shout, or a broadcast TV channel, to help pay for it.
Jim |
| | | 4/21/2009 1:27 PM |
|---|
epaddon
Member since: 6/2/2007 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | ****The really sad part is, no one will spend the money to put out a top quality set of RHODA on DVD now that this season 1 set just got released. ****
And that is the ultimate argument as to why this title should not have been released in such substandard quality because it *guarantees* that even if the better quality material does turn up it will never see the light of day on a legitimate DVD release. |
| | | 4/22/2009 5:00 AM |
|---|
JackDVD78@aol.com
Member since: 4/22/2009 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | Picked up my season set of Rhoda at Best Buy yesterday and I watched the first two episodes last nite and I loved them dearly. It has been YEARS at least 12 + since I saw them on Nick@Nite and anyhow, it was great seeing them again. I know Shout did the best they could with the release. I really hope all seasons are released on DVD, I will buy them all... I am hoping the original cut versions can be found the image quality didn't bother me too much, I felt like it gave the show some nostalgia, although the better looking they are I am all for it.
Please don't give up on the show, Mary took forever for a release on DVD and it is still up in the air. |
| | | 4/22/2009 7:25 AM |
|---|
Actingman
Member since: 9/5/2007 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | Here is a bit of useless trivia on that point quoted below: A friend who worked at Nickelodeon in the 80's told me when they started Nick at Nite and scheduled Mr. Ed, they were sent chewed up 16mm syndication prints. The network called up the distributor and said either Nick got high quality prints befitting a national network, or the show would not be scheduled.
They got the high quality prints; to the best of my knowledge, the distributor ate the cost.
The difference here is that the distributor would make money on the deal with the endless showings, which in their case would justify the cost of upgrading their library. The cost/benefit is just not going to be the same for owners who are looking at a title going out for a sub-license fee, and may never otherwise see the light of day again in their opinion (meaning they don't expect those titles to be run on any network or station again.)
Before I knew about the marketing decisions on Ironside (and the availability of the series in Australia), I was very concerned with the fire at Universal. It had destroyed a vault that sounded like it had the "ready to go" copies that I wrote about in my long post above, and I was concerned that if the only possibility of further releases was for the masters to go into telecine, Universal would not spend the money, and Shout would not be able to...even if the releases had been wildy successful.
And here is something I wonder about, and please see that it is pure speculation...and not something that Shout would discuss on their boards for very good reason, but I tend to guess that if a title did not already exist in tape or digital form, it would not come up for release on Shout, or any other sub-license label. Or to bring it back to Rhoda (and ignoring for the moment the part about Fox not having a current clue as to the locations of the originals): if those syndication tapes did not exist, Shout would never have released it...because Fox would not have spent the money, and Shout could not.
It comes down to what the market will bear. The cost for the remastered complete set of the one season original Battlestar Galactica was a lot more than the release of the season and a half of Buck Rogers...both from Universal. The studio bet that the demand for the very best release money could buy would be worth it to the fans...it defintly was in my case, and I hope it sold well for Universal. Networkdvd.net in England takes old shows and does amazing remastering, including every last bit of film they can find short of the countdown leader, and the cost of each set is much higher than the similar "copies available" approach that A&E has taken to the same titles.
Now, it would be interesting to read the comments on this board (even if Shout put millions into advertising and PR to explain why it was done) if they had spent the money to remaster Rhoda themselves, and had to charge something like $80 or $100 per season set.
----- Original Post -----
by Eastmancolor at 4/18/2009 2:58:22 PM
--SNIP--
The only way that RHODA will ever be fixed is if Fox suddenly gets the desire to spend the money on new transfers and for a distributor, like Shout, or a broadcast TV channel, to help pay for it.
Jim
|
| | | 4/23/2009 12:09 PM |
|---|
bencasey
Member since: 5/12/2007 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | | What it comes down to is that each studio treats their back catalogue differently. Both Fox and Universal care little about their back catalogues. Which also explains why many of the older shows that they own have seen little sales over the last few decades. As stated above, Fox remastered the Irwin Allen titles, all except for Lost in Space where they released the show from early 80s 1 inch masters. What they gave Shout on Room 222 was a set of 1 inch masters that were made from dirty 16mm transfers made about 30 years ago. For the layman, a dirty transfer is taking a film print and just transferring it to tape with no clean up, no color correction, not taking out emulsion scratches, or doing anything to it whatsoever. I don't know what Fox charges for transfers but I can tell you that Universal has astronimical in-house costs of $5000 a show for a transfer. That's even if they do it for themselves with one department charging the other. And I understand that Warner is even higher. Lets say that Fox has the same prices as Universal. For 25 episodes of Rhoda, it would cost $125,000 just to get a decent set of them, not counting DVD authoring, packaging, etc. Couldn't be done. But, don't believe the stories about the 35mm prints and negatives being missing or in poor condition. B.S. It costs too much, bottom line. If Fox discovered tomorrow they could make a profit with remastered episodes, believe me, those problems would vanish overnight. I know the MTM library has had a few ownership changes but then so has the Worldvision library and look how good Mod Squad and The Invaders look. Fine grain masters on major network television shows owned by large studios do not vanish or disintegrate, no matter what people tell you. |
| | | 6/30/2009 10:36 AM |
|---|
OhCurt
Member since: 5/12/2009 | | RE: Rhoda: What can be done? | | Season one episodes of Rhoda are now available to watch for free on Hulu. They don't have "The Honeymoon" episode, but the rest are there.
Oddly enough, while Shout's dvd set has the old syndication reels for "The Lady In Red," "The Shower," "I'm a Little Late, Folks," and "Anything Wrong?" Hulu has the complete versions.
To be fair, Hulu.com only has the shortened version of "You Can Go Home Again" whereas the disc set has the full version.
Why the discrepancy? |
|
|
|
|
|
